Category: Animal House
hi!
The topic of Dogs will be Dogs - primarily indicated some of the bad habits/behaviors guide dogs do. My guide dog tends to be a bit of a scrounger, so my question is this: For those of you who had dealt with this, what did you find successful? Did more trips to the off-leash parks where they can explore help or make things better? How about taking him for on-leash walks around the neighborhood so that they can sniff and explore their surroundings that way?
Any advice would be welcome!
Kate
Usuallly a leash correction can work but I know it don't always. Also try using the muzzle. Call the school, they will help you out. BTW, do you have a lab?
Luckally, my dog isn't much of a scrounger. When she does get interested in the occasional clump of ice or something, I do a good hard leash correction and usually stop to feel her mouth to see if she's chewing. If not, I'll probably tell her a firm "No" and look really mad while I'm down on her level. If she is chewing, I pry open the chompers and shove my fingers in to pull out whatever she's got. I like to think it's traumatizing enough that she'll hate me doing it, and so will quit eating things, but she's a dog, so she probably doesn't care. I also don't want her to get the reward of keeping whatever she's found. More importantly, my dog throws up at the slightest thing, and I don't want my dog getting sick from eating a leaf.
My view is that they should only eat ground things when invited to. Ideally, they should never be allowed to eat anything off the ground, but I'm a softy and labs make good kitchen vacuums. So being allowed to go on leash and eat things while exploring the neighborhood would only serve to reinforce the behavior that it's OK to ground scrounge.
Also, the Seeing Eye gave us a good stern lecture about off leash dog parks. I'm consequently terrified of letting my dog near one, because if an aggressive dog attacks her, I could easily be out a 65000 dog partner. What do other guide dog schools say about them?
HR and snowflower,
My guide dog school encourages off-leash play. My dog is very good in off-leash parks, and is good at making friends but also good at coming when called (except when she's discovered a tasty morsel that she doesn't want to give up).
Jenny is VERY high energy, so she needs the outlet of being able to just RUN. I notice that she scrounges less and is more focused the more opportunities she has to be a happy running ball of energy.
The leash correction works for a while, the prying the jaws is humiliating... but the school says that she did have this problem as a puppy but seemed to grow out of it. Perhaps she has had some success somewhere along the way.
My best friend says a Gentle Leader might be a solution; it's funny because my dog has the same distractions as her dog used to... so this gives me hope!
Kate
Let me start by saying I'm not a handler, but I've had a fair amount of dealing with a dog who had this problem. My partner of a few years ago, with whom I spent a great deal of time, was the owner of the dog. Great though she was in many ways, she loved getting into things, and like HR's lab, she would throw up at the slightest provocation sometimes.
Thus, my suggestion is this. If you don't have one but can obtain one, get a halty (I think that's what they call it). It's not a true muzzle, it just keeps the jaw fairly closed so that scrounging is nigh on impossible. I may be misremembering, but I believe this is one of its purposes. It's a bit less all-encompassing than a true muzzle would be, and might turn the trick for you.
It goes without saying that any of you who have more experience may know of better ways, but if leash correcting isn't doing it and you need something more foolproof, this might be the way to go.
Failing these great suggestions, as a last resort, I will suggest something that is at least 30 years out of date.
The first suggesting is a bit milder so I will go with that first. For this you need a cap gun, preferably double loaded. If you don't know how, you just run two rolls of caps through the same mechanism so the hammer hits two for the price of one.Bait an area of the flor, and when yu're sure the dog is scrounging off the floor, fire the cap gun.
Be behind the animal so it can't see the explosion came from you. I've heard that works, though the dog we had wasn't that smart, unlike the ones you have.
The second method, my father deployed on a dog that kept getting on counters for food. He would put his legs up and grab what was nearest with his mouth, though he knew enough to refrain if someone was around.
So what you do is get a baked potato, bacon, or something similar that will mask the odor, and lace it up good with Cheyenne pepper. Supposedly, it'll never know you did it, but then if your dog takes the bait just once, it will never dumpster dive again. That cause and effect Pavlov thing.
Personally I wouldn't give it just water afterwards, but give it milk instead, so you can coat its throat and insides and it won't suffer after the fact. Plus, at least according to what we were told, they can't tell that the milk is related, except that it feels better. Meaning, it can't say to itself, "If I get Cheyenne pepper, at least afterwards I get a bowl of milk." I don't know how accurate any of this is, and I'm quite certain it will offend the sensibilities of some, but if nothing else works, this might. And aside from annoyance causd by scrounging, I would also be concerned about some fool poisoning the dog on purpose. Even just spoiled meat will do it, but we had a couple cases out here where people were prosecuted for doing this.
Definitely under no circumstances use Leo's first suggestion. No disrespect leo but a working dog needs to handle all environments, and that includes those where there are loud noises. If they associate sudden noises with being in trouble they may become fearful in those situations. Imagine you're trying to cross a road when that happens...it wouldn't be a pleasant experience for either the dog or the handler, and if a guide dog school heard that you'd used noises to scare the dog as a method of corection I wouldn't be surprised if they took it off you.
Here in the UK we're aloud to let our dogs run off a lead, we call it free running, as long as the dog has good recall. Like others have suggested a harsh correction with the lead might be a good way to stop the scrounging. I wouldn't encourage your dog to sniff while she's on the lead, because that's quite confusing for the dog if you then don't want her to scrounge.
Ok, point well taken. So what about the second one? Will it cause the dog to refrain from scrounging?
Sorry, I thought you were talking about when your dog is in the harness. When off harness, I don't think there is no way to keep your dog from scrounging. The gentle leader is what I ment but called it a muzzle. Not sure if they are the same thing, lol!
I am completely against letting my dog run free in any dog park. you never know if those dogs are aggressive, have fleas, worms, etc. also, the last class I was in, there was a woman who was there because her dog was killed while playing with another dog. it's neck was broken. all it takes is one mistake and, your dog is ruined. if your dog has energy then, frankly, it's your responsibility to deal with it by playing with the dog or teaching it to play on it's own. I have an energetic german shepherd and live in an apartment. is my dog a crap guide because I don't free run it? no way.
I here how these folks in other countries, such as the UK are told to free run their dogs every day. but, have you ever seen them work? I have. it's nothing like the American dogs I have seen. the ones I have seen are completely distracted.
I know, I just got myself in big trouble but, I think it is because the dog is treated like a pet nearly all the time.
and, just think of all of the things that are out there for your dog to pick up off the ground, rotten food, used needles, cigarettet buts, you get my idea. and, that does not even consider poison. I have had a poisoning attempt on one of my guide dogs and, it is only because he was trained to only eat things from his bowl that he lived.
if you have a problem with your dog eating things off the ground, from the garbage, off low tables, etc, here's how to cure it for sure. put a nice slice of bread or something of similar size on top of a mouse trap. then, when the dog goes to grab it the trap goes snap and makes a loud noise and the bread jumps up. works great! and, it does not hurt the dog or screw with their training. and, you don't even have to be in the room for it to work.
o.o, and one more thing. you should cure this problem as, it makes things much more difficult in restaurants and stores. you don't want your dog grabbing things off shelves and being more concerned about what's on the floor in restaurants than guiding you around. believe me, this can happen. I have seen a dog actually grab food off of a table in a restaurant. talk about misbehaving. no way, not for me. I prefer to present a competent and confident picture. lol.
Hi, Dana,
Good suggestions. I don't think anyone assumes that because you don't free-run your dog that your dog is a crap guide or that you're a crap handler...
Personally, I think that Jenn tends to be much more focused if she gets a chance to run and go crazy. We wait until we see or hear the dog and talk to the owner before she's allowed to play with other dogs at all. In times of inclement weather, we do play inside both together and Jenny on her own.
I did get a Gentle Leader-type muzzle (can't remember the brand). At goalball practice, she did fantastic! I have had problems with her whining or running to me for comfort, but she just stayed on her blanket and watched. I will try again today w/ it to see if it corrects the scrounging.
Kate
We're actually told to free run our dogs around once a fortnight, if our schedule permits. Also dogs that get a heavy work load don't always need to free run as often because they're constantly out and about anyway.
Maybe you've met some guide dog owners who don't work their dogs correctly, but saying all dogs from one country suck because you've met a couple frankly makes you look like an idiot.
You should also consider that UK and US dogs are trained quite differently purely because of the structure of our respective countries. In the UK we don't have a block system, navigating can be a lot more challenging because of this. So the dogs are trained to work in a certain way that suits the layout of the roads in our country. By contrast a lot of US cities have a block system, though not all, so dogs there will work to that.
Scrounging is getting better!!!!!
I used the muzzle this morning, and we had a PERFECT walk to my training session - no attempts to scrounge AT ALL! I took it off her when we left, because she refuses to do her business while wearing it, and kept it off. She tried twice during the train trip to scrounge, but I was able to correct her and she kept on going, not trying to go after the item again. This is helping her focus and making life SOOOOO much better!
Huzzah!
Kate
yeah I remember having to use one of those the hussle on my dog and I would have to open my dogs mouth to get the food out that other students in my school were feeding behind my back and they gave him a chicken bone that luckily I was able to take off him cause he would of choked and I use to free run my dog but only at home or when in the forest as he had lots of energy to run off as he was a german sherphard though he did walk long distances with me so I didn't have to do it much with him.
wow! ok, I kinda have a dumb question but please know I don't have a guide dog as of yet...but how do you know it's scroundging? I mean, I would think sniffing is ok because all dogs sniff..
Unique, sniffing is NOT okay in harness. My dog becomes very distracted when she sniffs so she would not be focused on her guide work. Also, you can feel a lot through the harness and even the leash. At first you won't know when they are sniffing, but in class your instructor will tell you and you'll begin to see it for yourself soon after that. I know when she's scrounging or sniffing because she either stops walking or walks very slowly and has her head down on the ground (I touch her head with my right hand when I think she's doing something she shouldn't be). Finally, you can hear when they sniff or are eating something.
HTH
Agreed with Tough Sweetheart. Jenn isn't too much of a sniffer, but if she gets it in her head that she wants something, she stops and lunges forward to get it.. VERY obvious that's what she's doing. They will teach you in guide dog school what to look for, and your dog will not be perfect, but they will teach you how to spot the bad habits and give you tools for how to correct them.
Kate
Like the poster above said. You will learn to know what your dog is doing after a bit of time with it. They will lean away from you a bit or if it is just their head then you feel the pull in the leash. Sometimes too, they will just lunge for that food. lol... but you will learn..
wow, had no idea dogs shouldn't sniff in harnis! Interesting!
Yeah. If they sniff in harness it generallly means they aren't focused on you/working. While Jen is usually pretty good at not sniffing, sometimes on the bus if she's sitting, there's no where else for her nose to go but up to air-sniff.
Kate
Ah and again we learn something. I have always been under the impression that dogs needed to sniff to navigate properly. Sounds silly perhaps, but anyway, now this was interesting to learn.
yes very interesting and nice to learn new things, smiles.
I am sure that guide dogs air-sniff to navigate on some level, but if they get into sniffing bushes, poles, trees, etc., then they are obviously not focused. This past week the scrounging has gotten WAAAAAAY better. Even at home last night, Mr. Crazy was putting food away and dropped a mushroom on the kitchen floor right in front of Jenny. She perked up a little, then put her head down and left it alone.
Huzzah for self-control!
Kate
Luckally, I don't have to worry about Tripp scrounging. However, he is very stubbern, and does try to get away with things. My trainers have given me tools to help with this, and they've worked wonders. Also, he's learning that I'm boss, and won't let him get away with things. I took him to a dog park once, and will never do it again. He hurt his paw, and was out of work for two weeks. I now just play with him at home, or in a friend's fenced back yard when I'm able to.
Popcorn does not scrounge, but she is a sniffer. This presents more challenges as it's not
always obvious what she's doing, but I have learned to read her better.
Leash corrections usually work on her, thankfully. She will sniff hydrants and poles where
other dogs have obviously done their business.
As for free running, I will never take her to an off leash park but I am fortunate to have a
yard, so thowing a ring around for fetch or a good session of tug will generally tire her out
and make up for days when we don't have a lot of work.
yes it is good that you have space in your back yard to let them have time for some fun, I use to take mine to the forest as you can bring your dogs with you and let them run free which he enjoyed and I hope your dogs paw is healed and popcorn, funny name your dog has, is that its real name or a nickname you gave it?
Popcorn is her actual name as it was given to her by Guide Dogs for the Blind.
My dog Wizard is very bad about sniffing in haqness, particularly at resturants, and he will sniff people's legs as I walk by them. Leash corrctions work for the time being, but I have to correct him almost every time we go out, and he refuses to work in a gentle leader. Another issue I have is when we are at home, if he's off leash, and someone drops something on the ground he will get it. By the time I catch him and correct him, he has either already eaten it, or I have to pry his mouth open to get the food out. He is very food motivated, and I have had issues with people feeding him without my permission. I never had issues when I first got him until one incident where my grandmother fed him a piece of turkey. Ever since then, he sometimes begs and I don't tolerate that. If I catch him begging I put him on leash or tie-down immediately. The biggest issue I have with him is appraching people when in harness. And when the trainers worked with us he was absolutely perfect because he knew the trainers were there. I don't know what to do.
Keep correcting, but focus on the positive behaviour. For example, if in the incident that he doesn't go after someone food or beg for food, praise them, reenforce him with some positive behaviour. Also, very strick about what is accepted and what is not accepted, and be consistent with it. If you break the rules ones, they will learn very quickly that they, can, also break the rules.
Yeah thanks for the tip. I will praise him when he does not beg, and correct him when he begs. ]at do you think is the best method of correcting?
I used to use leash corrections, but my guide dog doesn't respond to them. Over the past few months I have started using clicker training with her. Example goes like this:
Start small with a clicker if you haven't already used one. Start by just clicking and treating if your dog pays attention to you when you click. A treat can be anything from a food reward, to verbal praise, to pets, to playing with a toy. Ultimately you want the dog to realize that the click means good happy things are coming.
then do something basic like tell the dog to sit. Doggie sits? Click and treat.
Once you get those thigns down, start small with food on the ground. Drop a food item on the floor in front of him. As you drop it, tell doggie to leave it. If he leaves it, click and treat. Do this a couple of times to reinforce the behavior.
Then take a couple of steps back, drop the food at your feet, tell the dog to come to you. If he picks up the food item, take it away, and start from where you last had success; if he doesn't, click and treat.
Then slowly back up and make it more complicated. Put the food in the path of your dog as he comes to you (this might necessitate someone sighted, but I used a small space and a crunchy food item so I could hear if she grabbed it).
I am not against leash corrections in and of themselves, but my girl didn't respond to them. I found this has worked quite well with my girl; sometimes we do this stuff in unfamiliar places, because that's where she struggles the most.
Hope this helps!
Kate
Thanks Kate I should try that. I have never tried using a clicker with my dog yet.
I'm still waiting for someone to try their clicker with their teenager though. Although the reward situation could get expensive; how many cell phones and other shiny things can you give out as treats?
lol that is funny and I remember when I had mine it was made as a rule that the kitchen was out of bounds so then he wouldn't beg for food which was a good idea and yeah I have seen how the clicker training works and I think it is a awesome thing to do, smiles.
I highly suggest anyone that want to try the clicker training, first talk to the school, and get some training tips on how to use the clicker before you start it with your dog. There is no perfect solution for every dog. What works with one dog might not work with other dog. They are living organism, hens why every dog is different.
What i do is i focus on the positive behavior. Praise it, or reward it, but ignore the bad behaviour, and use correction when it's needed. If you ask the dog again and again to leave and leave and leave, and leave and leave, one after another, they are more than nlikely to tune it off, and ignore you. But if you ask them ones, "leave", and mean it, and be firm about it, you will find, they will be more than likely to obey it.
Also, make a set of rules. If no dog close to the dinner table when you are eating, make clear about it in your home. The worse thing you can do is one night having it away from the table, next night having it close to the table, the next night wanting to pet it while you are eating. you are sending mix messages to the dogs, and the dog will end up less than likely to respect you when you are at the dinner table.
We eat in our living room because the table has a bunch of stuff on it. He won't beg from me because he knows better but he has begged from my mom before. One time he stole her food when I wasn't home and she didn't stop him. I was on a quad ride with my uncle and he took advantage and begged.